Burkas–The new fashion
A friend of mine attended an odd wedding and shared some pictures of the new fa
shions. The one on the left is wearing three head coverings: one under her chin, one covering her forehead, and one going all the way down her back. This is in addition to a full-length cloak.
The woman on the right is also wearing a cloak.
It’s standard in some circles for brides to wear completely opaque veils. Usually the mother helps guide her, but at this chupah the bride’s mother wore a decorated “box” over her entire head. Faces were uncovered during the dancing, but sexes are strictly divided by that point.
A post by Jameel, based on an article in Haaretz, sheds light–or more accurately darkness–on this phenomenon.
According to the Haaretz article, a woman called Rabbanit (rebbetzin, wife of the rabbi) Keren is behind this approach. She has ten children and leaves the house as infrequently as possible. She also maintains a “taanit dibur,” a speech fast, except for four hours a week when she gives classes and treats women as an alternative therapist. I don’t know how she manages not to speak with her husband and children. She wears ten layers of clothing (one for each child?) and advises women to switch the heels of their shoes so that they won’t click. Makeup and perfume are also taboo.
Toward the end of the Haaretz article, the author quotes a professor who suggests that this extreme modesty is similar to anorexia. I agree; it’s obsessive behavior based on a desire to deny one’s femininity. Or maybe I’m being judgmental?
When rabbis in certain circles emphasize women’s modesty above all other virtues, it’s no wonder that some will take things to the extreme.
Rafi helped me out by blurring the faces (as requested by my friend) on this additional picture, where you can see the bride:
Update: In a Hebrew article from Maariv, Neshot Hare’alah (Women of the Veil), Sherry Makover-Balikov interviews Rabbanit Bruria Keren and some of her followers.
English summary/translation: Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV, Part V, Part VI, Part VII,
Entire series
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RaggedyMom Said,
December 25, 2007 @ 7:45 PM
I keep staring at the picture from the wedding on the right to verify that this is actually a Jewish wedding. I feel like this whole phenomenon is so difficult to really believe!
And I think your thought on anorexia is spot-on. The desire to make oneself scarce/invisible is a common thread, and not in like with what I think is the true intention of tzniut.
Rafi G Said,
December 25, 2007 @ 8:44 PM
no picture of the bride and her mother?
she wore a box on her head? how did she see – she cut out eyeholes?
what did the bride wear?
come on. this is too intriguing for you to leave this post as is. you have to call your friend and find out more info and get more pictures!
mominisrael Said,
December 25, 2007 @ 9:06 PM
SHe wasn’t at the chupah. I’m not sure if that’s because women were not invited, but I think she just was not close enough to the family.
I asked about peepholes or possibly a periscope, and she said she would try to find out. Hopefully she’ll stop by here and answer your questions.
I have a picture of the bride, but her face is not covered and the dress doesn’t look unusual. I sent it to you; it’s not quite blurry enough to post and I don’t feel like asking my son to do it again.
Tamiri Said,
December 25, 2007 @ 9:15 PM
Are these ladies from a certain Yishuv in Gush Etzion?
mominisrael Said,
December 25, 2007 @ 9:22 PM
No, they’re from a haredi community in Jerusalem.
Juggling Frogs Said,
December 25, 2007 @ 9:23 PM
I’m trying to imagine the Aishet Chaiyil getting anything done in 10 layers of clothing and mismatched shoes.
It’s like they are trying to be nazirs with their tzniut.
I just don’t get it.
annie Said,
December 25, 2007 @ 9:39 PM
Hi, I’m the friend who sent Mom in Israel the photos. I wasn’t at the chuppah because it was too early in the afternoon for us to get there on time.
An extra note: one of the women guests at the wedding was wearing a veil over her face! Just like an Arab. I was both shocked and amused, and tried to regard the whole event as an anthropological experiment.
To answer some questions: The family are from the Meah She’arim area in Jerusalem.
The bride wore a regular wedding dress, covered by a lacy shawl. It didn’t look so weird except it’s unusual for a bride to wear a shawl at all. She wore a hat after the chuppah, not a wig or scarf, but I’ve seen that before at haredi weddings.
We still haven’t worked out how the bride’s mother could see at the chuppah.
The bride’s older sister, interestingly enough, did not wear a shawl or cape at the wedding, just regular haredi wedding clothes, i.e. a nice scarf and a pretty suit.
Moreover, our relatives were at sheva brachot later in the week and they reported that the bride was wearing regular clothes – a scarf on her head, and a nice tailored suit. No shawl or cape. So either she decided to dress normally to honour her new inlaws (who are “normal frum”) or her husband doesn’t like this weirdness, or she was happy to be rid of it once she left her parents’ house.
SephardiLady Said,
December 25, 2007 @ 9:45 PM
Positively bizarre.
Rafi G Said,
December 25, 2007 @ 9:48 PM
thanks annie. do you have any pictures of the mother? I am curious about her box…. if yes, you can send it to mother in Israel, she can send it to me and I can blur out her face so MOi can post it..
annie Said,
December 25, 2007 @ 9:55 PM
Sorry Rafi, I have no pictures of the mother. When I saw her at the wedding she looked fairly normal for a haredi: black scarf, black suit, black tights and shoes, adn it took me a while to realize she was wearing a black cape on top of her suit. But since it’s winter in Jerusalem it didn’t strike me right away that it was odd. Only on second thoughts I realized it’s strange to wear a cape indoors.
Our relative who was at the chuppah said the “box” on her head was shaped a bit like a cavalier’s helmet, all covered with velvet and flowers, but a box all the same.
Robin Said,
December 25, 2007 @ 10:23 PM
Bizarre as it seems to me, and as anti-women, I suppose it’s their prerogative to wear whatever they like no matter how I feel about it, but I have to say I’m really quite upset by the idea of a woman refusing to talk to her family and setting that up as an ideal. What kind of mother could she possibly be to refuse to speak with her children? I don’t even want to think about the long-term psychological ramifications of being rejected by your mother like that…
Elchonon Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 1:49 AM
The cloak is normal as showing pic #2 of the lady with black head covering.
Let em dress as they please..no one mocks arab women for the way they dress.
Jill Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 2:06 AM
Wow. Just wow. Thank you very much for sharing the photos. I’m really not sure what to think, or, I suppose if I should. It’s so easy to be judgemental but I imagine they have their reasons, like I have mine, yes?
Adam Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 4:24 AM
That certainlly is taken it to a very unhealthy extreme. Furthemore, to be blessed with 10 children and not speak to them is just plain odd and unhealthy. To be honest though I see this part of Tzniut with some women that they are embarresed at being a female but usually those types have difficulty dating and geting married and waste their childbearing years and find the whole process of being a women and even being pregnent as bad and being a baby machine. I guess they are scared by the women at the opposite extreme.
Jack Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 5:01 AM
I just can’t conceive of how they justify this. There are levels of tzniut, but this is out of control.
Baila Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 6:35 AM
This kind of extremism can be dangerous, but let’s face, it is limited. But with our world getting “frummer” everyday, I just don’t want my daughters ever thinking that is by any means halachically required. I grew up in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. Those Satmar women knew how to take tzniut to the max–but we never saw this…unless its there now…
mominisrael Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 8:37 AM
Thanks, Annie, for helping out here.
I find it amusing that the men are out in full force with comments on women’s dress. Don’t you have anything to say about housekeeping?
AR Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 9:38 AM
Could this be expressing the women’s desire for greater power over themselves and their relationship with their husbands?
About denying any [male] rabbinical authority (shulchan aruch, or living rabbis) over defining tzniut?
About the women choosing to follow a woman-leader, and using their bodies as instruments of social rebellion?
Overall the choice to cover up in such an extreme fashion strikes me more as defiance than godliness.
Abbi Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 9:45 AM
Wow, I heard about this sickness on Chanukah, but it’s unbelievable to actually see pics of it.
I also agree that your anorexia analogy is spot on.
And this woman who won’t talk to her children is “treating” women as an alternative therapist? How sad.
I also don’t think you’re being judgemental. It would be one thing if these were random non-Jewish pple choosing to do this kind of stuff. But these are Jews sickly twisting halacha with their craziness and calling it halacha (and seemingly influencing others with their “halacha!). That already turns it into the business of other Jews.
And of course, not a word from Charedi authorities on this matter. ( in contrast to all their blustering about things that have nothing to do with them).
Kmelion Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 12:25 PM
There’s a woman in the Yishuv where I live who for the past 5 years or so has been covering her head with a longsnood and over that, a scarf, fastened under her chin like many of the Arab women do.
I was told that she was told by her Rav that in order to attain a certain higher level of spirituality, she should cover her head like that.
Elchonon Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 12:29 PM
Oh give me a break, THIS is extreme ? I am a settler and live in kiryat arba / chevron.. where in shulchan aruch does it say that a married woman can show half her hair ? I didnt say to shave it.. but dati leumi hold they can show the top 8 cm….
Wearing a sheitel / peah in dati leumi / chareidi leumi circles is taboo and some say against halacha.. as a Lubavitcher I find THAT extreme..
I am blunt, and the way some married women dress is sickening.. skin tight shirts and short skirts that when they sit down ride way over their knees… I mean do as you please but that is wrong.. your just asking for every guy to stare at your body.. then women complain at his sick guys are that they stare..
It took me many years of hard work and self control not to look at a woman’s legs etc.. many guys are guilty of it without even knowing.
Dressing immodestly is a violation of lifnei iver (do not place a stumbling block before a blind person)
Modest according to shluchan aruch means covering the elbows, knees, and collarbone..
I am not the tznius patrol and respect what people wear.. but hey these people are not TOO extreme…
Yes the rabbanit is missing some screws..
Baila Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 12:53 PM
Elchonon,
I’m glad all that hard work has paid off and you are only noticing women with their elbows, knees and collarbones covered and not the ones with skin tight shirts, and short skirts that when they sit down ride up over their knees…..
RR Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 1:29 PM
Let’s hope this doesn’t become a trend and is limited to just a few sick individuals. Yes, I said sick. I think that rabbanit is suffering from some sort of mental illness and she is passing on the manifestations of that illness to several naive, gullible women.
I would hope that she would get some psychological help- if not for her sake, then for her children’s. Those poor kids.
Yonit Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 2:17 PM
I’m leaving lurker-ville just to say that the idea of a taanis debur (a speech fast) can have a positive application too! My husband’s good friend did one on a temporary basis (just as most people don’t do self imposed fasts willy nilly). He felt it gave him a better chance to listen, not be the center of attention, spend more time learning and less talking, etc. He took time off for Shabbos, and B”H it was positive and bigger B”H it was temporary, very annoying for those interacting with him. Can I say again, temporary? A permanent one seems extreme, but at least there’s no chance of lashon hara!
Lion of Zion Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 3:49 PM
MOM IN ISRAEL:
i really don’t understand why anyone is surprised at all this. it’s not like it is unexpected.
what i think is interesting is that these directives come from a rabbanit rather than a rabbi
“I find it amusing that the men are out in full force with comments on women’s dress. Don’t you have anything to say about housekeeping?”
ok. how is she supposed to get all the housework done while wearing ten layers of clothing?
ELCHONON:
“Wearing a sheitel / peah in dati leumi / chareidi leumi circles is taboo and some say against halacha”
this is not a leumi issue. it also assur for sephardim, haredi or otherwise. hakham ovadia yosef has very strong opinions on this (iirc, something along the lines of it’s better not to cover your hair altogether, but i could be wrong). and as long as you invoked the shulhan arukh regarding the tefach, please find me a makor therein that one may wear a sheitel (particularly the lubavitcher variety).
“as a Lubavitcher”
i find your comments regarding DL women amusing, considering that (in america at least) lubavitcher women are often considered the archetype of the “hot channie.”
“no one mocks arab women for the way they dress”
a) yes they do
b) we are not arabs
YONIT:
“at least there’s no chance of lashon hara!”
also no chance of lashon tov
JACK:
“I just can’t conceive of how they justify this.”
i don’t know how they justify it, but there is a rambam in the mishne torah that, according to some, obligates females (marriage is irrelevant) to wear a veil.
Jack Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 5:09 PM
My biggest issue with all of this is the implication that men cannot control our urges. I notice attractive women regardless of what they wear.
Sometimes I have sexual thoughts because of this, but it is my choice as to how I react or not react.
Because I am a grownup I don’t pay a second thought to it.
mominisrael Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 5:41 PM
Jack, what if they cover their faces and don’t talk? Do you think that make the mystery and attraction greater?
I dress modestly because I don’t want to be seen as a sex object,. It’s not my job to protect men from their urges.
Ariella Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 6:13 PM
I’ve heard of a double headcovering — I suppose a tighter fitting tichel with a shawl type thing on type in connection to chassidim of Slonim, and , of course there’s the doubling of a hat over sheitel that Satmar women wear, but I’ve never heard of more layers than that.
As for you last pronouncement, “I dress modestly because I don’t want to be seen as a sex object,. It’s not my job to protect men from their urges.” Hear! Hear! A man can claim he finds anything provocative, even if it is not something usually covered. We cannot anticipate such things in planning appropriate dress. Otherwise even our eyes would have to be covered lest some man somewhere find the sight of them too enticing.
Lion of Zion Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 6:45 PM
MOTHER IN ISRAEL:
regarding Elchonon’s comment that dati leumi women don’t wear sheitlach (which i think is a true observation), is this due to actual halakhic objections (a la ovadia yosef and hakhmei metz) or rather to pragmatism (e.g., cost).
ARIELLA
“A man can claim he finds anything provocative . . .”
which leads to obvious conclusion (and practice in certain societies) that women may not leave the house unescorted.
“Otherwise even our eyes would have to be covered lest some man somewhere find the sight of them too enticing.”
i’ve seen pictures of wahabi women with covered eyes.
also, eyes do have an intrinsic beaughty:
הִנָּךְ יָפָה רַעְיָתִי, הִנָּךְ יָפָה עֵינַיִךְ יוֹנִים
Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thine eyes are as doves (shir ha-shirim 1:15)
moreover, eyes can be the locus of attractive mystique:
הָסֵבִּי עֵינַיִךְ מִנֶּגְדִּי, שֶׁהֵם הִרְהִיבֻנִי
Turn away thine eyes from me, for they have overcome me(shir ha-shirim 6:5)
thus it may have been necessary to wear a veil:
הִנָּךְ יָפָה רַעְיָתִי, הִנָּךְ יָפָה–עֵינַיִךְ יוֹנִים, מִבַּעַד לְצַמָּתֵךְ; שַׂעְרֵךְ כְּעֵדֶר הָעִזִּים, שֶׁגָּלְשׁוּ מֵהַר גִּלְעָד
Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thine eyes are as doves behind thy veil
(shir ha-shirim 4:1)
(trans. from http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm)
balabusta in blue jeans Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 7:03 PM
“Let em dress as they please..no one mocks arab women for the way they dress.”
No one should–but adopting another culture’s clothes for no apparent reason is…odd. Jewish women have conventionally not covered their faces unless the surrounding culture required it.
This doesn’t surprise me much though–I’ve been hearing people get more and more obsessive about modesty for years now, and often enough someone will throw in how much more modestly Muslim women dress. Sooner or later…
Ten layers of clothes, and not talking to your husband and children is just worrisome. Has the husband made any public statement about all of this? Is he supportive of this mishegoss?
balabusta in blue jeans Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 7:03 PM
“Let em dress as they please..no one mocks arab women for the way they dress.”
No one should–but adopting another culture’s clothes for no apparent reason is…odd. Jewish women have conventionally not covered their faces unless the surrounding culture required it.
This doesn’t surprise me much though–I’ve been hearing people get more and more obsessive about modesty for years now, and often enough someone will throw in how much more modestly Muslim women dress. Sooner or later…
Ten layers of clothes, and not talking to your husband and children is just worrisome. Has the husband made any public statement about all of this? Is he supportive of this mishegoss?
mominisrael Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 7:25 PM
In my community in Israel many dati leumi women wear sheitels, and not just on Shabbat. At least ashkenazi women. For me (are you surprised) it’s pragmatic–easier to throw on a hat than tease a sheitel.
I’m not sure how much is economic– a variety of hats can also get expensive, but the new fashionable tichels are cheap.
I’m wondering where the women buy those cloaks.
Tamiri Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 9:26 PM
I’m wondering where the women buy those cloaks.
mominisrael
From the Arabs, of course!!!
ora Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 9:30 PM
Aren’t there halachic problems with dressing like non-Jews (in this case Arab Muslims, who in most cases (at least in Israel) are enemies)? Jews are supposed to have a unique style. Would Jewish women have dressed like nuns in 18th century Europe? I suppose these women might have a unique, non-Muslim way of wrapping their “shawl” burqas, but if nobody else can distinguish, isn’t it still problematic?
IMO there’s no problem with covering the neck, and I think it was a fairly widespread way of dress among Jews from certain Muslim countries. OTOH, I think there’s a big problem with covering the face. It’s dehumanizing. I don’t know what research, if any, has been done on the subject, but I would think that not seeing a someone’s face would make it easier to beat or otherwise abuse them.
Fern R Said,
December 27, 2007 @ 3:24 AM
“I have to say I’m really quite upset by the idea of a woman refusing to talk to her family and setting that up as an ideal. What kind of mother could she possibly be to refuse to speak with her children?”
The worst part about it is that she breaks her speech fast to give classes and act as a “therapist.” It seems to me that she is telling her children that other people outside their family are more important than the children. Afterall, she is willing to break her fast for the outsiders, but won’t talk to the children or their father!
Anyone who has been the subject of the “silent treatment” knows how hurtful it can be. I hope her children don’t think that they are the reason she isn’t talking. What a sad and demented situation.
MizEllie Said,
December 27, 2007 @ 4:27 AM
This blows me away. Here is one of the scariest parts: that she “treats women as an alternative therapist”. Yikes!
Baila Said,
December 27, 2007 @ 5:14 AM
Okay, so yesterday I was at Hadassah Ein Kerem and I saw two women who were obviously together. One of them was wearing a black scarf covering all her hair in typical charedi fashion. Her clothing also lead me to believe she was charedi (dark, everything covered). The woman she was with looked just like her accept for her head covering, which was was wrapped around her head and neck in typical muslim fashion. I, of course immediately of this post and follow-up discussion. So, were they Jewish, or Muslim? Hmmm…
Yonit Said,
December 27, 2007 @ 7:20 AM
I’ve seen several Arab women in Yerushalayim in snoods. Talk about confusion!
mominisrael Said,
December 27, 2007 @ 1:10 PM
Funny how it’s so hard to imagine that a charedi woman and a Muslim woman would be visiting a hospital together. . .
Batya Said,
December 27, 2007 @ 8:33 PM
It may be a fashion, but it’s not based on real halacha.
Lion of Zion Said,
December 28, 2007 @ 4:53 AM
MOM IN ISRAEL:
“In my community in Israel many dati leumi women wear sheitels”
olot or natives?
“hats can also get expensive”
we happened across a hat store in teveriah a few years that my wife liked and was affordable (although this may have been from our american standards).
“the new fashionable tichels are cheap”
here they charge a lot of many for shmatas, i mean tichels. the last time we went to israel my wife bought them by the dozen for her friends.
mominisrael Said,
December 28, 2007 @ 5:03 AM
LOZ, many of my “olot” friends have sheitels. But most have been here a long time. Maybe a higher percentage of Israelis wear them, but I’m not sure. Here in the cities they are more common than in the SHomron, say. It’s part of a more formal style of dress.
Women’s hats are much, much cheaper here. Maybe sheitels too, for all I know.
Juggling Frogs Said,
December 28, 2007 @ 10:41 AM
I experienced an externally-imposed taanit dibur a few years ago when I had a very virulent case of strep throat, and couldn’t speak (or even whisper)for two weeks.
It hit a few days before Pesach.
We spend the first days with family out of town. I cleaned for Pesach, packed the family, traveled, was a guest (although could only swallow liquids with the help of painkillers, and thus couldn’t even swallow a bite of matzah), traveled back home and had guests for chol hamoed shabbat and the last days.
(My point isn’t that I’m such a martyr, but rather that it was a logistically very complex and stressful time, with much to talk about/to/with my family.)
I (sort of) joked that this situation was a message that I needed to speak less and listen more.
I learned a lot in that time. I couldn’t speak with my family, but I could listen, and I could communicate.
At the sedarim, with extended family, I found it fascinating what other people said on my behalf. When I used gestures to try to signal something, inevitably someone would call out what they thought I wanted to say. I learned what they thought I thought, what I thought they thought, and how many assumptions we all make about one another.
I also learned how little of what I say in a given day is really necessary.
I would clap my hands, and my kids knew EXACTLY what I meant. Clap, clap. “Mommy says to hurry up, we’ll be late for school!” Clap, clap. “Mommy says it’s time to brush teeth and get ready for bed.” Clap, clap. “Mommy says to bring your laundry to the laundry room!”
I often think of those two weeks. I can’t imagine doing it through self discipline, in a busy family, even for one month.
I don’t know the mechanics of the taanit dibur. Perhaps she’s allowed to say, “Please pass the salt” and “Good Morning”, but refrains from “extraneous” speaking? Perhaps she’s a REALLY good listener, with a toddler on her lap and her arms around the shoulders of a teenage daughter, listening intently and nodding, with meaningful eye contact?
I hope so.
mominisrael Said,
December 28, 2007 @ 11:03 AM
JF–Thanks for sharing. But I can’t imagine not talking to toddlers or teens for an entire day. Even my 6yo is confused when I nod my head.
Simcha Said,
December 28, 2007 @ 1:37 PM
This is sick. The rabbonim should condemn this in the strongest terms. This is not Judaism, it’s more reflective of the Taliban than anthing halachik. Where are the Kol Korehs?
Juggling Frogs Said,
December 28, 2007 @ 3:02 PM
If she’s doing this (taanit dibur) with young children, how will they learn to speak without hearing her voice?
I still can’t imagine it.
With teens, well, I could probably benefit from spendinding more time smiling and shrugging, than the lectures I’m often tempted to give.
Juggling Frogs Said,
December 28, 2007 @ 3:04 PM
P.S. Confusing a teenager would be a victory. After all, turnabout is fair play.
miriam Said,
December 29, 2007 @ 6:55 PM
I say whatever rocks their boat. As long as it doesn’t get imposed on me! lol
I don’t understand the speech fast though. How does she teach her children day to day things?
Lady-Light Said,
January 1, 2008 @ 9:56 AM
Ok, this is it. We’ve descended into barbaric insanity, just like the Arabs. Congratulations, Jews: You have lost your minds, followed the extremists on the other side of the fence, and don’t see that the emperor has no clothes. (NOT intended as a tzniyut pun).
I am going to go out on a limb here, and opine that this is not what Hashem intended for human beings to do, let alone Jews. Remember this statement?(paraphrased)’al tosif oh tafchit la-Torah?’ Well, folks, these women (or whoever put them up to this) have just added to the Mitzvot in the Torah.
Sorry, NOT allowed. Where is this form of dress derived from? Answer: from nowhere. Even covering one’s hair is not stated outright in the Torah; it is implied from the story of the sotah.
So from where do we get wearing a hijab? From our friendly neighborhood Palestinians across the other side of the checkpoint? Get real!
(Hubby, remind me to cross off Ramat Bet Shemesh Alef as a place to live when we make our second aliyah.
ora Said,
January 2, 2008 @ 12:30 PM
Lady-Light
If the women dressing this way consider their dress the best way of fulfilling a mitzvah (instead of a mitzvah in and of itself), I doubt they’re guilty of “al tosif.”
Also, I don’t think the actions of a very small group of women (who, if you read the Haaretz article, find that their dress is rejected even within the hardcore hareidi community) justifies a black mark against all of Ramat Beit Shemesh Aleph (which is overall a nice, fairly American, modern (aka working + even sometimes army) Hareidi neighborhood), and certainly doesn’t justify “we’ve descended into barbaric insanity” (how can clothing be ‘barbaric’ in and of itself, anyway?).
Rafi G Said,
January 2, 2008 @ 1:52 PM
let us also not forget that the article said this is a small movement around the country. There are a couple of these women in RBS A, but there are a number in jerusalem, some in Tzfat, some in Tiberias, and some other places. This phenomenon has nothing to do with RBS.
Lady-Light Said,
January 2, 2008 @ 9:57 PM
Your phrase of “modern Hareidi” is an oxymoron.
I rarely agree with a Hareidi interpretation of anything. This mode of dress is just a bad interpretation of a good concept (tzniyut) taken to extremes.
I think the whole message of tzniyut is lost in the hijab case: Where will they go next? Hiding in the home and not going out? Only being accompanied by a male family member? Giving up driving? In my considered opinion, this is the beginning of the downslide into authoritarianism; it will, if taken further, KILL Judaism as a choice for intelligent human beings.
The whole concept of tzniyut is to be modest (i.e., moderate! )What those women are doing, is NOT the definition of ‘moderate!’
They just cannot see the forest for the trees.
Lady-Light Said,
January 3, 2008 @ 6:02 AM
Ok, this was really bothering me. So finally I posted about it. Read it at http://www.lady-light.blogspot.com
Thank you.
ora Said,
January 3, 2008 @ 9:37 AM
Lady-Light
“Modern hareidi,” as I said, means (to me) a hareidi community where it is standard for husbands (and often wives as well) to work, and where a decent number of the kids go to the army. Most parents + grown kids have some kind of advanced secular education. I don’t see how that’s any less “modern” than other religious communities. Although I suppose other hareidi communities are also “modern” in that they use modern technology, so maybe “modern” wasn’t the right word at all.
I really think you’re overreacting. Yes, this is a very disturbing case. But it is a TINY group of women, whose interpretation of modesty laws is NOT accepted in the hareidi community, let alone the wider religious community. To say that this is going to “kill Judaism” is more than a bit of a stretch, IMO.
mominisrael Said,
January 3, 2008 @ 9:45 AM
THe picture in Muqata’s post is from Ramat Beit Shemesh, but there’s no reason to think that it is more of an issue there than in the other communities mentioned.
My sister-in-law in Beitar Ilit is regularly approached by women who tell her that her sheitel (wig) is delaying the mashiach (messiah).
And the women in the pictures I posted live mainly in Jerusalem.
Lady-Light Said,
January 3, 2008 @ 3:28 PM
This is exactly what I mean: “Her sheitel is delaying the mashiach?!” (Not her actions? Not her deeds?)Talk about superficiality! And who the heck are they to judge someone else, to begin with? One is supposed to teach by example, with love – not by Taliban tactics. The news that this movement exists in other areas of Israel as well, is frightening; what is happening to us as a people? Maybe this is delaying the mashiach? Ever thought of that?
(But I’m overreacting, right?)
THINK, PEOPLE, THINK! G-d created us with BRAINS!
Mindy Said,
February 19, 2008 @ 7:42 AM
A few comments:
One, women who doesn’t speak to her children- I understand the other stuff. If it makes you feel closer to God, fine- go ahead. But not talk to your kids? I don’t see how any kid growing up like that, no matter how many hugs you gave him or how spiritual and happy and fulfilled you were, could grow up without any issues from that. Similarity to Chaim Potok’s “The Chosen.”
BAILA, what exactly is wrong with Elchonon’s comment? Just because he has a higher awareness of tsniut than most and is open to the problems of out generation doesn’t mean you have to knock him. Putting someone down like that is the first sign of insecurity.
LION OF ZION: It was a temporary tanis dibur, there is nothing wrong with that. Judaism belives in taking breaks from normal life to grow higher- what are the inuyim of Yom Kippur and fast days all about? They are temporary and that is the key point here.
JACK, good point.
MOM IN ISRAEL, good one about more modesty only making the woman more appealing. I believe it is Jacob Da Jew who makes that point in the comment section of his recent post. The question is now: Is it more tsniut for a woman to be more modest, or does it accomplish the reverse affect by making her more appealing?
ORA, I agree with you: I posted this on http://muqata.blogspot.com/2007/12/this-aint-your-bubbys-burka.html
while covering one’s neck and wearing a hair covering as opposed to a wig is understable, covering one’s face is not the Jewish way since the face is the person, and not the body.
LION OF ZION, what were you trying to bring out with the pesukim from shir hashirim? That women SHOULD cover their eyes?
JUGGLING FROGS, good story. Thanks.
ORA, I am in agreement with you about LADYLIGHT’s comment.
LADY LIGHT, regarding your second comment, try to break out of your “holier-than-thou” slamming attitude and ask yourself this: If you saw a mother slapping and screaming violently at her child, wouldn’t you feel you had a right to go over and say something even if possible arguements against your doing so would be that perhaps this is a one time thing? Since you feel that such behavior is never justfiable. So try to understand that these woman are merely *politely* and *respectfully* making other women stop and think about their actions. Don’t tehy have a right? You attack them as if they sprayed their clothes with bleach, which admittedly is not a decent not correct way to voice one’s disapproval. All they did was politely give them some food for thought- they did not attack them, they did not scream at them nor call them names in the street. Your outcry is far more emotional than the situation calls for and appears to stem from a deepset, emotion based, and knee jerk bias rather than a logical analysis and judging of the situation.
Esty Said,
October 5, 2008 @ 5:43 PM
Wow, unbelievable. It doesn’t look like a Jewish wedding with these burqas around. And a fast from speech except for 4 hours a week? So she never says a bracha…or never eats or lains krias shema etc.?
Extremely bizarre.
mother in israel Said,
October 5, 2008 @ 6:03 PM
Esty, tehillim and davening don’t count for the speech fast.
Esty Said,
October 5, 2008 @ 9:21 PM
Ok. Thanks Mother in Israel.
It’s still very disturbing nonetheless.
Autumn Said,
January 7, 2009 @ 10:26 AM
“I think there’s a big problem with covering the face. It’s dehumanizing. I don’t know what research, if any, has been done on the subject, but I would think that not seeing a someone’s face would make it easier to beat or otherwise abuse them.”
I agree with this, also it allows those with covered face to get away with rude bahavior as well. I live in a Gulf Arab Country and a lot of women choose to cover their face with either a niqab (which can also be called a burqa – or ninja style as others like to call it) or a full veil. I have noticed that many (but of course not all) of these women are some of the rudest when it comes to things like waiting politely in line for something, they push in front of others etc. I am guessing that this is because of the annonimity that having their face lends them – they can’t be held accountable as a person for their actions. They can do something rude to someone, and if they seem them the next day, can walk by them without even being recognized and therefore held to account for their actions. Anyway, this is just my observation and these are women who probably did not choose the veil, it just is the norm for their families. So this is a danger to watch out for if it becomes the norm for certain communities – that it creates a detachment of a person from their own actions. Kind of like if one is invisible.
I think that people who choose to impose this on themselves (don’t grow up with as a norm) have a whole other set of problems.
One thing that struck me from the interviews with these women was how one of them talked about how she feels like a princess when she goes out completely covered. This is identical to how converts (or “reverts” as they like to call themselves) to Islam who embrace the niqab or the full face veil speak about how they feel. There is one convert who who talks about how she wishes she could live in Saudi Arabia so she could be completely separated from men, (have separate elevators, etc.) she also refrains from speaking to men. She feels she is more respected by men, etc., and she feels good that her friend’s husband will not try to speak to her because of the way she dresses but will talk to her other friends who only wear the normal hijab (headscarf). This woman will not allow men to comment on her blog because she feels that even communicating with them that way (though they can’t see her or even hear her voice) is wrong. Another interesting thing that I noted about these converts is that most of them have had some traumatic experience or suffered from abuse – often sexual in nature – (which is known to result in a hate of one’s self or one’s own body.) I think there are always some sort of psychological issues when people choose / embrace extreme restrictions to the point of hampering their own ability to function. Not being able to see clearly, or not being able to talk to people including one’s own family, encumbering oneself with too many art
Autumn Said,
January 7, 2009 @ 10:34 AM
for some reason it appears that the end of my comment got cut off
..Not being able to see clearly, or not being able to talk to people including one’s own family, encumbering oneself with too many articles of clothing can all be quite problematic.
By the way I am not Jewish, but I found this article and discussion very interesting and I hope you don’t mind me commenting..
You also might be interested to know that I came across your blog because one of the muslim women’s blogs posted a link to it – not this article but the one about the Jewish soldiers helping the Palestinian smugglers..
mother in israel Said,
January 8, 2009 @ 7:42 AM
Autumn–
Of course you are welcome. I put your comments up as a separate post:
http://www.amotherinisrael.com/2009/01/08/thoughts-on-face-covering-from-resident-of-arab-emirates/
publius Said,
June 7, 2009 @ 7:11 AM
After reading every single word here…
come to this conclusion… this sect of Judism intents to stay in Jerusalem and believes that the West Bank will pass into Arab hands as part of the two state solution… so they are embracing the norms of islam more forthrighteously.
Not doing so to invent new jewish customs, since it is appearnt that there was a time where the dress of women in some jewish sects matched the practices of islam. i am just saying this sect of judism is making a statement of conformity so to be be able to remain in west bank.
not saying I agree with it, just my impression.
Which brings me to an interesting pov, if peace can be abtained at some point those that choose to remain in arab governed west bank, don’t you think that the expectation would be something along the burka dress, and if you don’t like it leave, the alturnative is all will be forced to leave if some compromise is not obtained.
It is not my choice, to say reject peace out of hand for those that would be willing to live as jews in communities within west bank under arab controll, specifically if there is strong pro quid pro to establish normal relations between arab and jews, real peace not fictional peace.
the bridge to heal is for all to strive for.
I think there is a strong desire of introspection on the part of arabs to look at islamic militalism as going no where. I am no apologist… for truely i beleive i understand the danger of arab govts in allowing openiness of democratic instutions to function under current climate of hatred, in if these govts are going to have to act to restrain the weakiness of the polis seeking to turn peace initatives into a ploy for power to continue the fight, then israelis are going to have make hard choices themselves in standing shoulder to shoulder with palestinians willing to make the choice of saying no to more violence.
What a day that would be to see those that have the power on both sides waking up to the fact that they can send the whole bunch of these hotheads packing, all of them… be they arab or jews. that to is a choice just as continue bloodshed is a choice.
an american pray
Leah Peretz Said,
July 19, 2009 @ 5:07 PM
Just to get a misunderstanding out of the way: Bruria Keren and all the riots that are happening for which Bet Shemesh got infamous for, are from Ramat Bet Shemesh BET, not ALEF. Alef has Dati-Leumi and Charedi residents (great part of Alef is Anglo) whereas Bet is Ultra-Orthodox mostly.
Also in our Dati-Leumi community in Bet Shemesh the women wear shaitels.
The Sephardi women usually don’t wear shaitels (no Sephardi Torah authority ever allowed it since the need has never arissen), but unfortunately the young women many times do out of vanity, peer pressure or marrying an Ashkenazi husband.
mominisrael Said,
July 20, 2009 @ 11:51 PM
Leah, thanks as always for clarifying details and sharing your perspective.
SnoopyTheGoon Said,
September 7, 2009 @ 12:21 AM
Oy vey…
Chaya Said,
November 5, 2009 @ 7:38 AM
Rochel covered her face when she saw Yitzchak, so she must have had some head covering close by and some practice doing it. There are rumors that women covered their heads to enter the Temple. Can anyone give more information? Does that mean that ordinarily women did not cover their heads? Also, apparantly there used to be a woman’s prayer shawl with markings different from that of men. Is this true?
Chaya Said,
November 5, 2009 @ 7:47 AM
Sorry–that was Rivkah, not Rochel.
Aviva Said,
February 2, 2010 @ 11:29 PM
Whilst to most people (myself included) this style of dress and behavior is over the top, (and ironically it could be seen as immodest as it draws rather than deflects attention) it is nonetheless a rather limited phenomenon. On the other hand, much more problematic is the widespread, shocking lack of modesty displayed by many religious girls and women from all streams of Judaism. Even when dressed nominally halachically, they are often very far from modest. Maybe your next blog could be on women who cover their hair and show cleavage.
mother in israel Said,
February 3, 2010 @ 11:07 PM
Aviva, I have seen that and considered writing about it. Not because I am offended by how they dress, but it does seem like some kind of cognitive dissonance.