Exclusive: Official Haredi Guide to Modest Necklines
Haredi Guidelines for Neckline Tzniut
This document is entitled: “Common Pitfalls Regarding Necklines.” At the bottom (cut off) it reads: These pages have been viewed by Rabbi Nissim Karelitz Shlit”a and Rabbi Moshe Shaul Klein Shlit”a from the rabbinic court of Rabbi Vozner Shlit”a.*
You can see common Israeli neckline styles here. The rabbis who signed off on the above document hold by stringencies not observed by all camps in the Orthodox community. Rabbis from the national religious community are more lenient about how much to expose, but none would permit a plunging necking or decolletage.
Of the 22 pictures, the first twelve are labelled “Not Kosher”:
1-3, 5: The neckhole is too open.
4: The neckhole needs to be above the necklace at the sides. [To judge the neckline, a woman wears a chain around her neck. The back and sides of the collar or outfit must cover her skin to the point just above where the chain lies on her neck. As pictured, a boat neckline exposes too much.]
6: The wide neckhole is not covered by the scarf, according to Jewish law.
7: From the back. The opening must be closed with a zipper.
8: A safety pin should be added to the top button, which does not cover according to law.
9-10: The shoulder bag pulls the collar and exposes the shoulder.
11: The neck is covered in front according to law, but not the sides.
12: The dickey (libit) is too low and does not cover properly.
Thirteen through eighteen, inside the central hexagon, are kosher:
13: The dickey (libit) covers according to Jewish law.
14: Closed according to Jewish law.
15: The neck opening is slightly higher than the chain.
16-18: The neckline is closed according to Jewish law.
Nineteen through twenty-two are pictures of views from the back (hard to tell when there are no faces visible).
19: Not kosher, the neckhole is too open.
20: Kosher, the neckhole covers according to Jewish law.
21: Not kosher, the neckhole is under the chain.
22: Kosher, the neckhole is above the chain.
Please keep comments respectful.
*Shlit”a: An acronym meaning “May he live a good and long life.”
Update: G6 left the following comment:
The document you posted is certainly the strictest stance and many very frum, yeshivish, right wing rabbonim would NOT agree that all these stringencies are required.
I would suggest that everyone consult their own posek (rabbinic authority) instead of imposing (possibly unnecessary) restrictions upon themselves based on an internet posting.
G6, there are people who are looking for more stringencies, but this is not the strictest opinion. I have seen sources quoted for covering the neck entirely.
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Jill Miller Zimon Said,
January 21, 2009 @ 2:18 PM
Wow – I tried to wear something like 1 and 11 to my relatives in Tel Arza (they’ve recently moved) in Jerusalem when I lived there and they let me, but they had a couple of relatives who wouldn’t have me over for meals. Maybe this is why?!
Fascinating. Well, to me. Thanks for posting this.
mother in israel Said,
January 21, 2009 @ 2:21 PM
I don’t know–they could have been worried about what you would say.
Mia Said,
January 21, 2009 @ 2:37 PM
This is so complicated. Why not have fitted regularly undershirts (with back zipper?) so you always know you are in line. This seems so complicated having to deal with this every time you get dressed.
Frayda Said,
January 21, 2009 @ 3:18 PM
It is interesting that these rabbis felt the need to be so specific about these laws and felt the need to create this document. What faction of Jews do these rabbis “rule” over?
G6 Said,
January 21, 2009 @ 4:27 PM
The document you posted is certainly the strictest stance and many very frum, yeshivish, right wing rabbonim would NOT agree that all these stringencies are required.
I would suggest that everyone consult their own posek instead of imposing (possibly unnecessary) restrictions upon themselves based on an internet posting.
KimWW Said,
January 21, 2009 @ 4:49 PM
I am not even Jewish and I find this document very interesting. I can imagine some very lovely garments that would meet the restrictions presented here. Perhaps a little more modesty would not be amiss in the world.
Then again, I must confess to worrying more about cleavage than collar bone.
Thank you for posting the document!
mother in israel Said,
January 21, 2009 @ 5:56 PM
G6, good point and I added your comment to the post. But as I wrote there, this is not the most stringent opinion. Some advocate covering the neck entirely.
Mia, there are stores where pre-approved clothes are easily available.
Frayda,I believe all of the rabbis listed are Lithuanian, non-Chasidic rabbis and represent a large percentage of haredi Jewry. (Haredi means ultra-Orthodox, for lack of a better term.) I hope another commenter can be more specific.
Kim, thanks for visiting. Many people are unhappy with the difficulty of finding modest clothing.
tesyaa Said,
January 21, 2009 @ 6:38 PM
I did know a lady who wore turtlenecks almost all the time (I’m trying to remember if I ever saw her differently). She was quite frum, but I never knew if she was dressed that way for tznius reasons. I remember wondering if she had some kind of scar or disfigurement on her neck.
mother in israel Said,
January 21, 2009 @ 7:32 PM
Tesyaa, I think I know who you are now.
Frayda, many volumes have been written about minutiae of Jewish law. But regarding modesty, the haredi rabbinate has a problem as large numbers of girls and women in their community who are not following the letter of the law, or maybe not even that. So they need to keep adding specific details so there won’t be any loopholes, so to speak.
Katherine Said,
January 21, 2009 @ 7:56 PM
I’m not jewish and I find this stuff fascinating. I think a lot of women regardless of religion find finding semi modest clothes difficult (in secular type stores that is). When I got pregnant and had suddenly larger “assets” shall we say, suddenly none of the clothes I could buy were terribly modest at all – I had to wear vests underneath them so as not to be shocking the general public!
Baila Said,
January 21, 2009 @ 10:32 PM
Oy. I work with charedim and they must be totally offended by my clothing. At least in the winter my sleeves tend to be longer.
Fern @ Life on the Balcony Said,
January 22, 2009 @ 3:41 AM
Probably 90% of the time I am in conformity with that poster, although I am not anywhere near charedi. I have to be honest though, if my Rabbi published something like that and had it posted in the ladies room of the shul, I think I would be really tempted to violate the directions just for the heck of it. I find that kind of top down control over minutiae to be stifling. I guess that’s why I’m “not anywhere near charedi.”
Regular Anonymous Said,
January 22, 2009 @ 7:13 AM
This Shabbat, in my dati leumi community, I saw a bumper sticker on a car which read: Banot Tnzuout Monoat Asonot (Modest Girls Prevent Disasters).
The problem of course is that this implies that non-modestly dressed girls/women cause disasters.
While following the dictates of modest dress is commendable as well as mandated by halacha, blaming less-than-the-strictest for causing disaster is not an acceptable approach, IMHO.
mother in israel Said,
January 22, 2009 @ 8:27 AM
Katherine, even finding clothes for small girls these days is hard.
Baila, no one has said anything right? Do the haredi women you work with follow the posted guidelines?
Fern, I don’t think this kind of thing helps change the people who are really dressing immodestly in that community.
RA, it’s always the women’s fault.
shorty Said,
January 22, 2009 @ 12:38 PM
i was just wondering – would the scarf be ok, if the neckhole was properly covered? (they seem to show “correction” for necklaces but not for the scarf one, so i was wondering if scarves are a problem too?
thanks!
great post! this is really interesting and answers a lot of questions for me!
Shoshanna Said,
January 22, 2009 @ 11:29 PM
I find it most disturbing that the women in the pictures have stumpy little pinheads.
squarepeg613 Said,
January 25, 2009 @ 12:28 PM
I agree with what they say at my daughter’s school. Too much talk about modesty isn’t modest. Especially by men.
If modesty is really about women not wanting to show ourselves off, then women should be talking about it, not men. That is, it might be helpful to women to get a clue from men on how the male mind works, but it should be left to women.
Alice Said,
January 26, 2009 @ 8:10 PM
Is this how you dress? If you don’t mind me asking, that is. I don’t think there is anything wrong with dressing modestly, by the way. It doesn’t offend me that people are particular about it.
mother in israel Said,
January 26, 2009 @ 8:30 PM
Shorty, I’m pretty sure that the answer is yes.
Shoshana, um, yes.
SP613, yes, but in Orthodox Judaism, the (male) rabbis are the arbiters.
Alice, no. I do dress according to Orthodox Jewish standards, but I do not follow the modesty standards of the rabbis who approved this particular document. Orthodox Judaism is not monolithic.
squarepeg613 Said,
January 27, 2009 @ 6:34 AM
MiI — it’s bad enough that the men are the arbiters. But this obsession (of these men) with the tiny details of women’s dress — what can I say, it seems weird. Why are they *so* interested?
mother in israel Said,
January 27, 2009 @ 7:50 AM
My feeling is that they are trying to stop a moving train. I heard about a haredi wedding, where the groom’s family was so upset at the bride’s dress (too wide neckline) that they almost called off the wedding. Too many charedi women/girls are ignoring even the basic standards, and this document is a way of trying to rein things in. And of course you will always have a group of women who like specific guidelines.
Rahel Said,
January 27, 2009 @ 3:15 PM
Mominisrael, I believe you’re right about trying to stop the moving train — but I believe that the moving train here is connected much more with individual autonomy than with mere modesty. It seems to me that modesty is only the vehicle that these rabbis are using in order to try to keep control of their communities — or at least of the women in them.
Years ago, when I was the guest of a well-known teacher in the local Haredi world, I saw a booklet detailing various modesty “pitfalls” that are very similar to the ones in the above illustration. The booklet urged Jewish women to dress more modestly because there had been so many bus bombings in the recent past. It said explicitly that if women took it upon themselves to dress more modestly, they would prevent similar disasters from occurring in the future. It even offered a free alterations service to make existing clothing more modest.
When my hostess saw me looking at the booklet, she said, “Don’t look at that — it’ll drive you crazy.” To this day I wish I had had the courage to ask her — respectfully, of course — why, if that was her opinion of the booklet, she had it in her home.
Ayala Said,
January 28, 2009 @ 8:17 AM
Regarding the moving train – had the haredi family of the chattan not heard about the mitzvot to make a bride happy on her wedding day, to not publically embarass people and so on?
Frankly, all the restrictions in the haredi world remind me of Saudi Arabia, and encourage me to be less externally observant, not more. I think that people should spend less time being critical of each others appearance and more time looking at the heart of a person and encouraging ahavat Israel and unity.
mother in israel Said,
January 28, 2009 @ 8:33 AM
Rahel, yes, but the lack of modesty –at least by haredi standards–reflects badly on their authority because it is so obvious. If, say, people stopped following strict kashrut guidelines it would be less blatant. And as anyone with teens knows, it’s hard to control what they wear–but the issue exists among married women as well. I know someone who works for a major Israeli company, and often meets with female representatives of haredi PR firms. He reports that they do not dress according to this document.
I am also curious as to your hostess’s feelings about it.
Ayala, I don’t know how it was handled, as I heard the story second-hand. I’ll try to find out.
“Frankly, all the restrictions in the haredi world remind me of Saudi Arabia, and encourage me to be less externally observant, not more.”
Yes, I also sometimes feel like buying a skimpy bathing suit to spite them, but I prefer not to be influenced by them in either direction.
Stuart Said,
May 20, 2009 @ 7:39 PM
Why not just go the whole hog and wear a Burka?
mominisrael Said,
May 20, 2009 @ 7:45 PM
Thanks, Stuart, for your comment. Some Jewish women have done that. Just check out the “hyper-tzniut” category on the sidebar.
Sarah Yarok Said,
May 22, 2009 @ 11:34 PM
Comments here are very interesting. I asked a RW Litvishe posek about this “necklace” thing. It is NOT halacha, it’s a suggestion. He said as follows: the neck is vertical, it may be exposed. The shoulder is horizontal. It must be covered. On each individual there is more or less sloping area between the neck and shoulder, of which the majority (>50%) should be covered.
However,I am extremely curious how RZ poskim rule (if they do issue guidelines) as I’ve seen RZ,DL or whatever they might identify themselves as, who, I am sure, take their religious observance seriously, but don’t seem to be covering the collarbones. What, if any, guidelines are there, do you konw?
mominisrael Said,
May 25, 2009 @ 1:04 PM
Sarah, thanks for visiting and commenting. Rabbi Yuval Cherlow, head of the Hesder Yeshiva in Petach Tikva writes in his book, Reshut Hayechid, that the neckline should be closed but not to the point of choking. In general he prefers not to give very specific guidelines.
Neshama Said,
June 7, 2009 @ 8:08 PM
Wow, I liked all the comments here. Sof b’sof I find myself dressing as my conscience dictates, and always check in the mirror as to how I might appear to others, as a reflection of who I feel I am. IOW if my sleeve is too short FOR ME then even if it looks good in the mirror, I move around alittle to see if I really feel comfortable with it. If not, then I am not dressing the way I feel inside. I prefer that my outside reflect my inside. Some women need to look in the mirror before leaving the home, some just don’t realize how they appear to others. I believe the mystique is in hiding what is most alluring, it calms the mind.