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	<title>Comments on: Abortion in the Religious Zionist Community</title>
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	<description>A community about parenting, Judaism, and Israeli living.</description>
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		<title>By: mominisrael</title>
		<link>http://www.amotherinisrael.com/2009/05/08/abortion-in-the-religious-zionist-community/comment-page-1/#comment-7414</link>
		<dc:creator>mominisrael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 14:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks, Keren. I updated the post to include the link.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Keren. I updated the post to include the link.</p>
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		<title>By: Keren</title>
		<link>http://www.amotherinisrael.com/2009/05/08/abortion-in-the-religious-zionist-community/comment-page-1/#comment-7412</link>
		<dc:creator>Keren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 13:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amotherinisrael.com/?p=1330#comment-7412</guid>
		<description>I wrote a long post straight after this went up, but it got lost, and it was too difficult to rewrite
Here is the link to the article as it was reproduced on the Kipa support after pregnancy lost forum
Anyone reading hebrew will find reading the posts attached interesting too
http://www.kipa.co.il//community/show.asp?messageid=4908532

I want to mention that the main focus of the article was not on downs syndrome but mainly on families who terminated a pregnancy because the child would die soon after birth.
An emphasis was also on the fact that no one talks about this and no one shares with any one at all if they did terminate a pregnancy.

re Ultrasound tests, many are done to diagnose conditions that can be treated straight after birth, not to decide on abortions, e.g. heart defects that will require immediate operation</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wrote a long post straight after this went up, but it got lost, and it was too difficult to rewrite<br />
Here is the link to the article as it was reproduced on the Kipa support after pregnancy lost forum<br />
Anyone reading hebrew will find reading the posts attached interesting too<br />
<a href="http://www.kipa.co.il//community/show.asp?messageid=4908532" rel="nofollow">http://www.kipa.co.il//community/show.asp?messageid=4908532</a></p>
<p>I want to mention that the main focus of the article was not on downs syndrome but mainly on families who terminated a pregnancy because the child would die soon after birth.<br />
An emphasis was also on the fact that no one talks about this and no one shares with any one at all if they did terminate a pregnancy.</p>
<p>re Ultrasound tests, many are done to diagnose conditions that can be treated straight after birth, not to decide on abortions, e.g. heart defects that will require immediate operation</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.amotherinisrael.com/2009/05/08/abortion-in-the-religious-zionist-community/comment-page-1/#comment-7404</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 22:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amotherinisrael.com/?p=1330#comment-7404</guid>
		<description>MII, interesting topic, though one that generally gives me (and my wife) the willies.  My wife and I had some brief discussions about this after we were married, but only very brief.  The thinking was that if God forbid a decision ever needs to be made, we would talk more at that time.  Baruch Hashem, we never had to have that further discussion.

&lt;i&gt;LOZ - there are 2 psychological factors involved in abortion&lt;/i&gt;[space]

And maybe a third factor is the &quot;ick&quot; factor, that of realizing that you are killing something important that is growing inside of you.  This is a factor affecting the father as well as the normal maternal factor affecting the mother (who indeed feels the life growing inside of her womb).  This is especially true nowadays with all those ultrasounds that often show the growing baby very clearly (and our last two were twins, so my wife got to have an ultrasound every few weeks).

Putting the typical abortion question (Roe v. Wade which always generated the longest threads ever, anywhere, anytime, on all discussion boards or blogs) aside.  I put it aside because there is no real point arguing about that since few people are likely to change their minds about it, and almost everyone is firmly in one camp or another.  Anyway, for something much more controversial, I think that abortion should sometimes, though very rarely, be required, yes, &lt;b&gt;required&lt;/b&gt;.  I think that in cases in which the baby is so damaged that after being born, it will live a short, painfully agonizing life, it really ought to be killed while still in the womb. Perhaps it can be looked upon as a kal vachomer of tzaar baalei chayim.  Not to equate human and animal life in any way, but if we are unwilling to let a mere animal suffer for no purpose, how much more so should we be unwilling to let a human being suffer for no purpose?  However, only Hashem knows the true answer to these questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MII, interesting topic, though one that generally gives me (and my wife) the willies.  My wife and I had some brief discussions about this after we were married, but only very brief.  The thinking was that if God forbid a decision ever needs to be made, we would talk more at that time.  Baruch Hashem, we never had to have that further discussion.</p>
<p><i>LOZ &#8211; there are 2 psychological factors involved in abortion</i>[space]</p>
<p>And maybe a third factor is the &#8220;ick&#8221; factor, that of realizing that you are killing something important that is growing inside of you.  This is a factor affecting the father as well as the normal maternal factor affecting the mother (who indeed feels the life growing inside of her womb).  This is especially true nowadays with all those ultrasounds that often show the growing baby very clearly (and our last two were twins, so my wife got to have an ultrasound every few weeks).</p>
<p>Putting the typical abortion question (Roe v. Wade which always generated the longest threads ever, anywhere, anytime, on all discussion boards or blogs) aside.  I put it aside because there is no real point arguing about that since few people are likely to change their minds about it, and almost everyone is firmly in one camp or another.  Anyway, for something much more controversial, I think that abortion should sometimes, though very rarely, be required, yes, <b>required</b>.  I think that in cases in which the baby is so damaged that after being born, it will live a short, painfully agonizing life, it really ought to be killed while still in the womb. Perhaps it can be looked upon as a kal vachomer of tzaar baalei chayim.  Not to equate human and animal life in any way, but if we are unwilling to let a mere animal suffer for no purpose, how much more so should we be unwilling to let a human being suffer for no purpose?  However, only Hashem knows the true answer to these questions.</p>
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		<title>By: Ariella</title>
		<link>http://www.amotherinisrael.com/2009/05/08/abortion-in-the-religious-zionist-community/comment-page-1/#comment-7402</link>
		<dc:creator>Ariella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 17:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amotherinisrael.com/?p=1330#comment-7402</guid>
		<description>Dor yeshorim offers genetic testing on the model rickismom describes.  They have the standard diseases like TaySachs and some others they test for.  But they refuse to run the test for certain things, like the breast cancer gene.  There are other avenues to test oneself and get the results.  But Dor Yeshorim, which is chareidi run is concerned that people will feel &quot;defective&quot; and worth less in the shidduch market if they know themselves to be carriers.  Also Dor Yeshorim will only offer the compatibility results only at the early stage of the shidduch, not for engaged couples.

LOZ: that is just it.  Tests and precautions are no guarantee.  Actually there is a test for the strep carried by the mother. So I don&#039;t know if the doctors here are somewhat at fault. I remember getting a prescription for antibiotics during one of my pregnancies because I had a symptomless case of what the doctor described as strep.  I had no idea at the time that the consequences could be so devastating if the condition is not detected and treated.   But, really, you never know.  I had a preterm baby as a result of placental abruption the day after a completely normal checkup.  Happily, she turned out fine.  But I had absolutely no risk factors then -- she was my second -- and carried the next kids to terms with normal delivery even though the preemie was delivered by C-section.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dor yeshorim offers genetic testing on the model rickismom describes.  They have the standard diseases like TaySachs and some others they test for.  But they refuse to run the test for certain things, like the breast cancer gene.  There are other avenues to test oneself and get the results.  But Dor Yeshorim, which is chareidi run is concerned that people will feel &#8220;defective&#8221; and worth less in the shidduch market if they know themselves to be carriers.  Also Dor Yeshorim will only offer the compatibility results only at the early stage of the shidduch, not for engaged couples.</p>
<p>LOZ: that is just it.  Tests and precautions are no guarantee.  Actually there is a test for the strep carried by the mother. So I don&#8217;t know if the doctors here are somewhat at fault. I remember getting a prescription for antibiotics during one of my pregnancies because I had a symptomless case of what the doctor described as strep.  I had no idea at the time that the consequences could be so devastating if the condition is not detected and treated.   But, really, you never know.  I had a preterm baby as a result of placental abruption the day after a completely normal checkup.  Happily, she turned out fine.  But I had absolutely no risk factors then &#8212; she was my second &#8212; and carried the next kids to terms with normal delivery even though the preemie was delivered by C-section.</p>
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		<title>By: christine brown</title>
		<link>http://www.amotherinisrael.com/2009/05/08/abortion-in-the-religious-zionist-community/comment-page-1/#comment-7398</link>
		<dc:creator>christine brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 04:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amotherinisrael.com/?p=1330#comment-7398</guid>
		<description>i was 21 when i gave birth to a beautiful baby girl.who happens to be downsydrome.she is now 28 soon to be 29.she has been agreat joy and i am glad that i am her mom............we can&#039;t all be movie stars.or perfect.could you imagine a world where everybody was perfect............life is important at every stage..the unborn should allways be protected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i was 21 when i gave birth to a beautiful baby girl.who happens to be downsydrome.she is now 28 soon to be 29.she has been agreat joy and i am glad that i am her mom&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;we can&#8217;t all be movie stars.or perfect.could you imagine a world where everybody was perfect&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;life is important at every stage..the unborn should allways be protected.</p>
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		<title>By: rickismom</title>
		<link>http://www.amotherinisrael.com/2009/05/08/abortion-in-the-religious-zionist-community/comment-page-1/#comment-7397</link>
		<dc:creator>rickismom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 23:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amotherinisrael.com/?p=1330#comment-7397</guid>
		<description>2 Points:
ARIELLA- You mention a child with Down s. who was seriously ill, made no eye contact, and died. Tha\is is NOT the norm for children with DS. While they have overall, a 50% rate of heart defects, almost all survive, and in many cases the holes close on their own without surgery. Eye contact may come a bit late (3 monthes instead of one), but almost all have eye contact. It sounds like this baby had lung involvement (rare), or an additional diagnosis.

Shiduchim and chareidi community:
 Since Down syndrome is not heriditary (except in RARE cases, and this is not the 40 year olds with 6 previous kids...), and today people know this. So very few shiduchim are ruined due to DS. Again, diabetes would be much more of a problem, and are you going to give away a child with diabetes??? Those few who don&#039;t want to marry us because of DS aren&#039;t worth it anyway, if they are such &quot;tembelim&quot;.....

TESTING FOR GENETIC:
   The testing in the chareidi community is actually a very good idea, as this testing is for problems that occur only if both parents are carriers of a recessive gene. NO ONE (not even the carriers) know who is a carrier.People are identified by number, and you call in the two numbers. If both are carriers for the SAME disease, they are told that the match is not good. In such a case, they know that they are both carriers of something (which disease?), and since BOTH are carriers, they BOTH shut up as to why the match was not proceeded with</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2 Points:<br />
ARIELLA- You mention a child with Down s. who was seriously ill, made no eye contact, and died. Tha\is is NOT the norm for children with DS. While they have overall, a 50% rate of heart defects, almost all survive, and in many cases the holes close on their own without surgery. Eye contact may come a bit late (3 monthes instead of one), but almost all have eye contact. It sounds like this baby had lung involvement (rare), or an additional diagnosis.</p>
<p>Shiduchim and chareidi community:<br />
 Since Down syndrome is not heriditary (except in RARE cases, and this is not the 40 year olds with 6 previous kids&#8230;), and today people know this. So very few shiduchim are ruined due to DS. Again, diabetes would be much more of a problem, and are you going to give away a child with diabetes??? Those few who don&#8217;t want to marry us because of DS aren&#8217;t worth it anyway, if they are such &#8220;tembelim&#8221;&#8230;..</p>
<p>TESTING FOR GENETIC:<br />
   The testing in the chareidi community is actually a very good idea, as this testing is for problems that occur only if both parents are carriers of a recessive gene. NO ONE (not even the carriers) know who is a carrier.People are identified by number, and you call in the two numbers. If both are carriers for the SAME disease, they are told that the match is not good. In such a case, they know that they are both carriers of something (which disease?), and since BOTH are carriers, they BOTH shut up as to why the match was not proceeded with</p>
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		<title>By: Lion of Zion</title>
		<link>http://www.amotherinisrael.com/2009/05/08/abortion-in-the-religious-zionist-community/comment-page-1/#comment-7392</link>
		<dc:creator>Lion of Zion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 18:20:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amotherinisrael.com/?p=1330#comment-7392</guid>
		<description>ARIELLA:

i&#039;m still not sure of the point. i mean i get your point that at the end of the day nothing is in our hands, but the situation you describe is not analogous to the controversial one above. in the situation you describe all was normal during pregnancy. nothing could have been done differently,
the issue is when there is information indicating in advance that there might be a problem and how to act on that information. sometimes the information is not 100% certain. then you have to take account are the lab results a fluke or accurate.

(i could be wrong, but i thought they check for strep before labor?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ARIELLA:</p>
<p>i&#8217;m still not sure of the point. i mean i get your point that at the end of the day nothing is in our hands, but the situation you describe is not analogous to the controversial one above. in the situation you describe all was normal during pregnancy. nothing could have been done differently,<br />
the issue is when there is information indicating in advance that there might be a problem and how to act on that information. sometimes the information is not 100% certain. then you have to take account are the lab results a fluke or accurate.</p>
<p>(i could be wrong, but i thought they check for strep before labor?)</p>
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		<title>By: Ariella</title>
		<link>http://www.amotherinisrael.com/2009/05/08/abortion-in-the-religious-zionist-community/comment-page-1/#comment-7391</link>
		<dc:creator>Ariella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 17:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amotherinisrael.com/?p=1330#comment-7391</guid>
		<description>That, LOZ is the point.  Though  we can anticipate conditions and turn the odds in our favor, a fluke thing can happen to turn it all upside down.  The odds may indicate that the baby will be perfectly healthy, but then he is in critical condition long enough to cause a chronic problem.  As for this baby, as far as I know he is once again home, but the long term effects may only be manifest by the milestone markers later on, i.e. walking, talking.  He has been receiving hours of therapy since he was just a a week or so old.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That, LOZ is the point.  Though  we can anticipate conditions and turn the odds in our favor, a fluke thing can happen to turn it all upside down.  The odds may indicate that the baby will be perfectly healthy, but then he is in critical condition long enough to cause a chronic problem.  As for this baby, as far as I know he is once again home, but the long term effects may only be manifest by the milestone markers later on, i.e. walking, talking.  He has been receiving hours of therapy since he was just a a week or so old.</p>
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		<title>By: Lion of Zion</title>
		<link>http://www.amotherinisrael.com/2009/05/08/abortion-in-the-religious-zionist-community/comment-page-1/#comment-7389</link>
		<dc:creator>Lion of Zion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 14:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amotherinisrael.com/?p=1330#comment-7389</guid>
		<description>ARIELLA:

the story you tell is a sad one (hoping the baby is ok now), but how does it relate to a situtaion where there is prenatal evidence of a problem?

&quot;you really never know&quot;

every health care decision involves a process of cost (risk)-benefit analysis (yeah, i know that sounds cold)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ARIELLA:</p>
<p>the story you tell is a sad one (hoping the baby is ok now), but how does it relate to a situtaion where there is prenatal evidence of a problem?</p>
<p>&#8220;you really never know&#8221;</p>
<p>every health care decision involves a process of cost (risk)-benefit analysis (yeah, i know that sounds cold)</p>
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		<title>By: Lion of Zion</title>
		<link>http://www.amotherinisrael.com/2009/05/08/abortion-in-the-religious-zionist-community/comment-page-1/#comment-7388</link>
		<dc:creator>Lion of Zion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 14:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amotherinisrael.com/?p=1330#comment-7388</guid>
		<description>MII:

intersting post

&quot;I am not sure that knowing that a rabbi might allow an abortion helps parents who end up in that place.&quot;

i think it would help greatly. there are 2 psychological factors involved in abortion. one is the maternal aspect and the other is the moral aspect. the rabbi may or may not be able to offer comfort in former, but rabbinic sanction could help put any moral angst to rest. i think this becomes more true as one moves further along rightward into the relgigious spectrum with individuals who are more likely to consult rabbis for these types of questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MII:</p>
<p>intersting post</p>
<p>&#8220;I am not sure that knowing that a rabbi might allow an abortion helps parents who end up in that place.&#8221;</p>
<p>i think it would help greatly. there are 2 psychological factors involved in abortion. one is the maternal aspect and the other is the moral aspect. the rabbi may or may not be able to offer comfort in former, but rabbinic sanction could help put any moral angst to rest. i think this becomes more true as one moves further along rightward into the relgigious spectrum with individuals who are more likely to consult rabbis for these types of questions.</p>
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