My post, What Defines Israeli Parenting?, generated a lively discussion. Lack of manners among Israeli children came up again and again.
Yesterday someone named named Trudy left the following comment:
We spent our sabbatical year in Israel in 07-08. It was a fabulous experience. I agree with most of the observations/comments above. For me, the most striking thing was the bad behaviour of the children AND the adults who had obviously been parented in a similar manner. Don’t get me wrong. My children also misbehave, but the difference is that, when they do, I notice, I care and I act. Many Israeli parents do not notice, care or act. They are raising another generation of rude, spoiled children. I had visited Israel 3 times before our sabbatical year and, of course, I noticed and experienced the rude behaviour of both adults and children. However, over the course of the year, this aspect of Israeli culture REALLY began to wear on me. It was embarrassing, as a Jew, to imagine what non-Jewish tourists thought of “us” as Jews. They are not just seeing rude Israelis, they are seeing rude Jews. Many of the Israelis that I spent time with while in Israel were also embarrassed by the behaviour of their fellow Israelis and their children. The difference, in almost every case, was that the people I spent time with – family and friends – had themselves lived in Canada or the US.
I should state again, because this reads as very negative. We loved our time in Israel and look forward to future vacations there. And to be sure, there are things that Israeli parents probably do a better job of than North American parents.
Mimi of Israeli Kitchen responded:
Trudy’s comments about Israeli behavior are unfortunately accurate. By American/Canadian lights, there is no culture of politeness here – no customer service – lots of confrontation.
On the other hand, it’s necessary not to care what outsiders might think if Israel is to survive in an anti-Semitic, anti-Israel world.
My Canadian sister almost dies of embarrassment when I respond to confrontation from people on the street. (I’ve lived here 33 years.) She would much rather that I backed down, and answered softly to defuse the situation. She covers her face and shakes her head when I answer back.
My sis comes from a country with secure borders. A country whose citizens don’t experience the daily, hourly personal and national stress that we have. With a larger middle class used to more leisure and more material comfort, consideration and politeness come easier, maybe.
My life experience is different. I’ve sat in buses wondering if I’ll make it to my destination, or if my destiny will be to get blown up by a suicide bomber in the next few minutes. My children have attended funerals of kids their own ages, victims of terror. I look at my precious little grandchildren and pray that peace will come before they reach army age.
If there’s one thing rude Israeli culture has taught me, it’s that it takes assertiveness to survive.
So yes, Israelis are missing an essential element in that which lubricates social relations. It hurts us here and abroad. I’m perfectly willing to own that many of us need to be educated in manners, consideration, trust and trustworthiness.
But that hard, assertive core keeps us alive. No apologies for that.
Twitter links powered by Tweet This v1.7, a WordPress plugin for Twitter.
Fern,
You really didn’t get my point. Everyone in Israel serves in the military or has family that serve in the military. Even a large chunk of charedim have family that serve. Again, a cultural factor that you completely don’t understand.
I’d like to point out that the intentional murder rate in Israel is 1.87, while in the U.S it’s 5.8, right between Kenya and Turkey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
If the U.S. is so “polite” why do so many of its citizens feel the need to murder each other? (especially so many more citizens than mean old Israel?)
I think the larger point is, if you’re not living here and actually building Israeli society, your criticism as a diaspora Jew, even if it’s constructive and even if there’s a point, means very little.
When you come here and take part in building our society, it will mean a lot more.
I lived in the U.S. for 50+ years. I’ve lived in Israel for a bit over 3 years. The experiences I’ve had are mine and may differ from yours.
The rudest, meanest, most self-centered children I’ve ever met were in California–products of what most Americans would consider privileged upbringings.
The politest, most compassionate children I have ever met were in Japan and in Israel.
If you bring me a cake, I will say thank you and offer you coffee — but that doesn’t give you the right to criticize my cooking and reorganize my kitchen. Likewise, I will gladly say “thank you” to anyone who wants to help support and defend my country. OTOH, I am offended that anyone who does so feels that it is okay to dictate to me, whether about my political positions, my society, or my child-raising.
Americans are also individually and collectively some of the most confrontational people in the world–and usually see nothing wrong with that. At an office function, a man groped me under the table so I picked up a fork and stuck it in his hand while announcing at the top of my lungs that I didn’t want his (expletive deleted) hand on my body and if he didn’t remove it immediately, I would insert the fork somewhere more painful. I’m not sure if pain, threat or embarassment caused him to leave so abruptly….Americans do things like bomb Afghanistan into rubble because the Afghans were dumb enough to invoke tribal custom in protecting a terrorist mass murderer. I’m old enough to remember the Cuban Missile Crisis, which was pretty rude and confrontational–”move your nukes off the island or we nuke YOU.”
Given the current political climate, I’m not sure “confrontational” is a negative, whether in the international arena or dealing with gropers and line-jumpers.
Americans smile too much out of reflex, even when they don’t mean it, and then think Israelis aren’t friendly because we don’t smile so often. Americans think fake politeness is good manners whereas Israelis think its just a form of lying. Israelis are abrupt to the point of painfulness but think they’re treating you as an equal and as an adult. Hebrew lends itself to that kind of bluntness of expression that the English language can sidestep through synonyms and evasions.
But Israel is also a place where people will gather to help someone who has fallen in the street whereas America is a place where people will step over you while you’re dying.
I’ll take Israel, even with the bluntness and directness which too many Westerners mistake for rudeness.
For me, being rude is being inconsiderate and behaving as if you are the only person in the world and everyone else is here for your pleasure.
By that measure Americans are very rude – some American tourists will stop you in the street and ask directions or interrogate you for 15 minutes about the country and its history – and not thank you for your time or even ask if you have the time.
Currently a group of Australian Jews in their twenties have moved in opposite me – and I have never had worse neighbors- they are basically drunk from noon till after midnight, hear music loudly and shout all the time, turning a very quiet street into hell. We have talked to them repeatedly to no effect and many others have called the police – nothing helps. Australians are really rude.
Talking loudly on cellphones on the bus or in coffe shops, or hearing music loudly in public places and singing along is also rude and as far as I can tell this happens in the States as much or more as it happens in Israel.
The amount of selfish, inconsiderate behavior in America is truly astounding.
I have met rude people from many countries, including France, Spain and Italy.Germans are not rude – they just politely, and in an orderly manner, exterminate your people.
In short, Israelis are rude, but not more so than other peoples in the West.
On the other hand, the amount of Hessed here is astounding – Israel has the highest rate of donations to charity, per capita, than any other country in the world and if you are in trouble, someone will rise to the occasion.
If you are poor or weak or old or a minority – Israeli society will treat you better than any other country.Not perfectly – better.
Yes, even Arabs – you may have noticed that many Arabs are trying to get in to Israel to live here (probably the real reason the fence was built in the West Bank), but how many are leaving Israel for the “good life” in other Arab countries?
For all its supposed rudeness, Israel has yet to conduct a war of extermination on another people (the United Nation “Human Rights” Commission reports and declarations not withstanding)or drop an atomic bomb on another country?
The supposedly polite American and Europeans have done just that.
So, looking at the big picture, Israeli rudeness and general conduct compares very well with the rest of the West, in my opinion.
That said, line jumping here is epidemic and I hate it, but I guess I have to take the good with the bad.
American manners have steadily declined over the years. We’re always complaining here now about the parents who don’t discipline their children (in movies or restaurants). That’s a different issue, though, than the issue of how adults treat each other during normal, everyday situations. Here, we always cringe when we see how rude customers treats shop keepers.
[...] A Mother in Israel: Frugal Tips to Save Money as Your Family Grows, some of these are things I wish I had known before I had kids. Why the Average Haredi Family Goes to a Hotel for Pesach, a humorous look at cleaning advice. Street Goats in Bnei Brak Are Mature Religious Women Leaving the Fold? In Defense of Israeli “Rudeness” [...]